Our guest today is Lapiga Evgeny Yakovlevich - Advisor to the General Director of the Center for Integrated Design Solutions, author of more than fifteen inventions, Candidate of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, Chief Engineer of Large Projects for Oil Refineries. Evgeny Yakovlevich has been dealing with the problems of cleaning process condensates and industrial wastewater contaminated with phenols and other hazardous chemicals in recent years.
MARIA: We will talk about ecology and complex systems. What role does water play in ecology?
EUGENE: Water has always been the main product consumed not only by man, but by all nature. The state of health of people, animals and nature always depends on its purity. On the one hand, hazardous chemicals come from production structures and this is the bulk, and on the other hand, very often nature itself, in the process of decay and other complex processes, also sometimes releases toxic substances. We recently encountered this in Kamchatka. Algae released toxic substances, as a result of which a lot of fish died. Today we will consider and return to the problem of purification of wastewater and industrial condensates from phenols. Phenols have one interesting property - they are soluble in water. We do not see them, but we smell them and suffer greatly if they enter the body. Dangerous concentration starts from one milligram, and the requirement that these waters can be used for drinking is one microgram in one liter.
MARIA: I am a child of the eighties, and I caught the time when my dad drank tap water and there were no health consequences. Then there were no these phenols?
EUGENE: Phenols began to get in to a large extent as soon as we started working with heavy industry, heavy residues from them, and as soon as we began to make plastics of a certain quality. The same phenol-bound polycarbonates we make for greenhouses. As materials, they are excellent, and the waste that is obtained is very dangerous. These processes are accompanied by the appearance of a significant amount of phenols. When there are a lot of phenols, they can be removed. These processes have been debugged for a long time, but when a very high degree of purification is required, these processes are not suitable. It turns out that there are leftovers that, until recently, were quite difficult to dispose of, but in fact, you just had to learn how to destroy them. One of the main methods that has been developed over the last fifteen to twenty years is the ozonation process. Ozone dissolved in water contributed to the combustion of phenols and similar substances.
MARIA: Are these installations at enterprises?
EUGENE: Yes, these are the installations at the enterprises. The only problem that exists is the very high cost of these installations. Recently, methods have begun to develop that are more interesting, because when they began to study how ozone works in water, it turned out that it does not work on its own, like, for example, an oxygen atom, but it works as a stimulator of the formation of radicals. And now they are already destroying these substances at a very high speed. Millions of times greater than the rate of oxidation by ozone itself in water. New technologies that have begun to develop, and we are engaged in them.
MARIA: If you compare the situation with the same phenols in Europe, the USA and Russia, do they all have the same problem?
EUGENE: We can say that in the USA and Canada phenols are recognized as one of the most dangerous substances. Although they belong to the second class of danger, these are not the substances next to which you can die. From the point of view of eating food with water, this is extremely dangerous.
MARIA: Are these countries ahead of us in terms of development with this problem?
EUGENE: Their ozonization processes are quite well developed. For the last ten or fifteen years, we have been actively engaged in the processes of efficient oxidation of organic substances in aquatic environments. The task is difficult, but solvable. We have recently succeeded in setting up a pilot plant for the destruction of these phenols. All that has been done in recent years is work that is aimed at trying to remove and destroy phenols without dilution. Most of the petrochemical processing industries have the biggest problems with phenols.
MARIA: I can give you a small example. A few years ago I was on a business trip in the city of Tuapse. There, as far as I know, there are two oil refineries. I was very amazed that in our modern life, you can go out into the street in broad daylight and smell the persistent smell of gasoline and oil. There is simply nothing to breathe. The water also smells like oil products.
EUGENE: They are located on the banks of the Tuapsinka River, which flows directly into the sea, and there are beaches and everything else nearby.
MARIA: I swam on this beach, and then I could not wash off. I immediately have a question: are they doing something now at the moment, at least some cleaning systems? What's happening?
EUGENE: I can tell you what the problem is. The problem is in the approach to solving environmental problems associated with pollution. Imagine a factory that produces millions of tons of products. The volume of production per person in such mass production is simply fantastic. Well, that is, tens of millions of rubles or hundreds of millions of rubles fall on one worker. Now imagine that, on the one hand, these are costs, and on the other hand, that you need to keep people. And the money would be ready to pay, but the system is such that everything is basically done by the factories. And as long as this does not change, there will be no real shifts. They are ready to pay fines, but they are not ready to develop a cleaning system. This is all new to them. In terms of the complexity of the process, this is exactly the same process as the production itself, but it does not generate income. The situation here is such that in reality we have to organize specialized structures that would work in one direction for, say, all plants. Because of the complexity of the problems, it cannot be scattered. In this regard, this is the difficulty. In terms of waste, what is important today? If we are talking about phenols, this is water purification, but in fact there is still a huge number of processes that need to be taken into account. What got into these wastes, it is necessary to separate from them what can be reused. And it's not just for oil refining. What cannot be used must be tried either to decompose or burn.
MARIA: Such a controversial point. Yes, additional costs, but, on the other hand, in a very small number of years, we will all suffer greatly from phenols!
EUGENE: Phenols are one of the most unpleasant substances, because what floats in water can be caught, separated, let's say flotation. We ourselves are developing a device that allows you to purify insoluble oil products. Soluble is a completely different part.
MARIA: How to identify phenol? Does he smell like something?
EUGENE: Yes, it smells a little moldy.
MARIA: Can it lead to any diseases?
EUGENE: Of course! The liver and kidneys suffer. What suffers is through which pollution is removed from our body.
MARIA: I recently heard that a new law has been introduced this year on mandatory complicated purification from phenols. What is this law and what can it lead to?
EUGENE: This issue was considered, and many plants today, along with new plants that produce phenols, are immediately trying to create, purchase and install plants that would extract or burn them. Unfortunately, today we are buying Western installations, the cost of which is huge.
MARIA: And what about your pilot plant?
EUGENE: The technologies laid down are exactly the same as in the West, but we have a number of interesting developments that have allowed us to significantly reduce the cost of these processes and make them actually safe. Ozone is a very dangerous substance. If it hits the air, it won't seem small.
MARIA: We had a conversation about ecology with the company ASP-AQUA, with which you work and which, as I understand it, are going to buy from you or have already bought installations.
EUGENE: These are our partners and we are part of the ASP-AQUA unit.
MARIA: That is, as I understand it, they will now move this process with equipment?
EUGENE: Yes, we will move the equipment, and they will move the implementation process and the implementation process. This is correct, because they have very large volumes of water treatment products. We, being in a joint company, are engaged in this part.
MARIA: Your direction, as I understand it, is the struggle for the environment?
EUGENE: Not only fighting, but solving environmental problems. It is scientific, because we are not alone, we are also working with a number of institutions. This is FIAN, the Physics Institute of the Academy of Sciences, where people also worry about everything going well. The task is very difficult, but there will be a solution for everyone.
MARIA: It's very strange that everything is happening in our country - institutions, scientists, everyone is worried about the environment, but just the industries that deal with oil are not worried enough.
EUGENE: They are also worried. Just imagine, they have a very large research center within the enterprise. Hundreds of people work there, and they are colossally competent specialists. Now imagine: will they be engaged in the main processes that generate billions and hundreds of billions of income, or will they deal with minor issues? If they are engaged in small businesses, then this is not the money that is important for these enterprises. But if it were a separate enterprise, then these hundred million would be enough for it. This is precisely the problem. We are ready for everything, but we are not ready to lose our status and our main indicators.
MARIA: You are developing such serious systems that we do not yet have in our country, and what we need, we buy in the West. Does the government support you in any way?
EUGENE: We support ourselves. The state will support only if it is a huge program in itself, or if it should be a program at a certain stage of solution. The state should not be sprayed on every person.
MARIA: Well, suppose we take the same oil refinery in Tuapse. We understood and realized that they have no time to do this, because they do not have such opportunities, but if they are willing to pay for it, then they can hire some company that will control it?
EUGENE: Usually they do. But let's say I'm big and I have a lot of small cleaning tasks. Well, what am I going to do? I say: let's make a sewage treatment plant, where we will pour all the water, mix everything, and then we will look for a needle in a haystack. They are ready to solve one big problem and want to do everything at once, but it does not work out. Each enterprise cannot deal with small enough problems for it. To do this, you need to identify areas, and someone to do this in this area, and then implement it in these enterprises.
MARIA: Were you previously engaged in the oil refining sector?
EUGENE: Yes! And now she's left. Thanks to the fact that we have been doing this, we know how to do processes correctly. How to first extract from this waste, what can be used and how to clean up the water later.
MARIA: Doesn't Skolkovo deal with such things? Are they responsible for such nanotechnologies?
EUGENE: Well, you see, it was necessary for all this to mature, because everything ripened literally two years ago. But since both we and our partners had the strength, we decided that we would bring it to the point where it can be shown and promoted. We made a pilot installation at an industrial facility. We really got what I was talking about - the residual content of phenols is less than one microgram.
MARIA: What was the starting point two years ago that you were talking about?
EUGENE: You know, we met with people who dealt with this problem. Knowing well physics, we understood where they had a stupor, what needs to be done to make the problem start moving. We made such an offer and it turned out that everything is simple. We have accordingly developed a new technology.
MARIA: Are there many young people in your field?
EUGENE: Of course! They love it and they love to work. Everyone loves to work when there is a result.
MARIA: Young people are only looking for money, they are only interested in income. How young inventors and scientists are still not obsessed with this? Dispel this myth for me!
EUGENE: There may be no more of them than there were before under the Soviet Union, but if someone went, then they go very far. These are people who cannot imagine their life without it. They are there, but they are no more. When they paid more for it and it was held in high esteem, there were many of them, but now there are of course fewer of them. In terms of their qualities and their capabilities, they are much better than we were at their age.
MARIA: And then they go abroad?
EUGENE: Unfortunately, yes. What is bad is that you teach a person, invest knowledge, but he does not have the conditions to grow further. The question is not even about money, but the conditions are not created under which they can work.
MARIA: Will you continue to cooperate and move with ASP-AQUA?
EUGENE: Of course! Today, we are finalizing the part that will allow us to create a block for specific industries that would allow us to collect phenolic waters only from those facilities that create them. Do not mix all the waters, but collect them in one and clean them. Do it as part of the treatment facilities of such plants. But we need to know exactly what will go there. Doing the most universal is always very expensive, it is better to do it for a specific request.
MARIA: What, according to your forecasts, will be the first region of Russia to undertake such experiments?
EUGENE: Perhaps it will be Tatarstan.
MARIA: It won't be Moscow or its nearest districts?
EUGENE: Moscow is also considering it. The Moscow plant may well do this and, most likely, it will do it. He has a plant that is supposed to remove hydrogen sulfide, but, unfortunately, it does not affect phenols. Moscow has a program to create a plant, but it can go the other way - this is ozonation, which is in the West, and they will promote it to us, because it is more expensive and more complicated. When there are such options, they interfere with creating something else.
MARIA: After all, our project is cheaper, more interesting and no worse. Where is the logic then, why not order our installations?
EUGENE: Problems of risks. To do this, you need to believe in it. It's not worth three kopecks, it's a lot of money. If processes are being made that, say, foreign licensors, they will always push their technology. These are the reasons that slow down the processes.
MARIA: What do you think, are there any prospects for your system to go to the West later?
EUGENE: The West has been inviting for a long time. That's the whole point, we're not sitting in a vacuum. Give it to the West, and then you will buy three ways. Wouldn't want to. Despite all the problems, we have already done pilot tests on a real refinery plant, with real effluents.
MARIA: If only they fought with air problems in the same way ...
EUGENE: Do you know the CO2 problem? Does it really need to be fought hard? And how to make sure that the CO2 that is produced is returned to nature for processing? If we learn how to transfer this to plants in more closed areas, it will be very good. If you look at the trees that grow next to petrochemical plants, they have all the foliage leaning towards the enterprises. They get food from there. These foods are needed for plants to grow. We need to learn how to use it all, and this is where all these global problems lie.
MARIA: How to make sure that those who make decisions hear and understand this?
EUGENE: There is one serious person - the President of the Republic of Tatarstan, who understands this. Therefore, let's learn not to clean, but to use! What is produced is not necessarily terrible!
MARIA: That's what I'm talking about, maybe it needs to be conveyed after all, not only at the level of scientists and developers, but at the state level! Why does the state not take part in these processes?
EUGENE: Because these are still new processes. A lot of things related to this are being patented now. I also don't want anything ahead of time, because there are a lot of good people in the West. At one time, the Japanese considered the Young Technician to be the best magazine in the world. It was true. It was the most widely read magazine in Japan.
MARIA: After all, a lot of minds left for the USA and Europe.
EUGENE: People also left our company. They are the best, but here the living conditions and working conditions are not created for them. After all, we also invite a number of scientists who we really need.
MARIA: I was sure before our conversation with you that all this is supported by the state!
EUGENE: The question of the price of the project. If it is hundreds of billions of rubles or dollars, then the state will hold on to it. But here it is not such a problem.
MARIA: As far as I know, the state issues grants. Why not keep specialists with these grants?
EUGENE: What is a grant of one million rubles? It's nothing these days! If you take 10 million, then this is just to start, because such problems are much more expensive.
MARIA: I can't imagine how people in Tuapse haven't revolted so far?
EUGENE: Because the majority of people work at this plant, it feeds them. The city of Tuapse itself is poorly located. But most of the areas that are being built now are on the hills. And therefore, from the point of view of people's lives there, it is much better than living below. Of course, this is bad. But this is one of the most modern factories that were and are.
MARIA: I want to touch on an industrial scale, not related to factories and steamships. Tell from a scientific point of view, which water is better to drink and which is not necessary. We all drink purified water: someone puts filters, and someone orders bottled water.
EUGENE: The West lives on bottled drinking water. This ensures that all kinds of mechanical impurities do not get there. There are practically no sources or very few of them that would fully meet our requirements. Well, if you take the company Chernogolovka - it is from wells, it is cleaned, it has enough calcium and you will not see deposits on the kettle.
MARIA: How do you feel about spring water?
EUGENE: A very, very dangerous thing. It seems that the taste is good, but you have to look and analyze, because it often happens that you look: a person drinks water from a spring, but there are no teeth. This happens when there are a lot of acids in the water, but it tastes very good. Of course, bottled purified water is the future.
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